Shop Mobile More Submit  Join Login

What is 'Fair'?

Journal Entry: Tue Apr 17, 2012, 3:04 PM
:thumb296466138: :thumb296563075: Help Spread the Word by oomizuao Frontpage Curiosity by Shutter-Shooter

It caught my attention what these yellow deviations say in their copy-pasted descriptions and I wanted to give my two cents.

If you did not hear about it, let me explain it within a few lines: For about 4 months now deviantart launches a new frontpage system called "Fair Exposure". It is not only based on the count of favourites/comments/views anymore, but tries to feature deviations from different, especially underappreciated categories to have a variety of art on the frontpage.

- Well first of all, this is nothing new. The first mayor change to this algorithm for Popular browse results happened back in 2008 with exactly the same reaction from the community mccann.deviantart.com/journal/… If you thought the old system was based solely on favs/comments/views, now you know it hasn't been like that for some good 4 years by now.



While this seems like a honorable and nice goal it seems to achieve the reverse effect. It is called "Fair", but if you look at the frontpage these days it wont be hard to notice, that "Fair" looks different. Masses of people submit their deviations to obscure categories just because it increases their chance to get to the frontpage. The frontpage is full of naked women presenting rather intimate parts of their bodies, photographs of lego-figures with 20 favs, MLP-fanart submitted to totally wrong categories and art that is submitted to resources and stock images, just because you can download a custom brush that was probably made within minutes...

- Well then it isn't the system's fault don't you think? Maybe the algorithm would give better results if people actually submitted to the correct category each time, but because people wanted to play the so called "category game" the frontpage is more filled with miscats, often of low quality. BUT THEN AGAIN, it's not the system not making it's work here, it's the people trying to take advantage of it in a way it wasn't supposed to. On a side note, for as much as I'm sick of MLP as well, I can't really say I see much difference with how it used to be a few months ago, but to each their own. Oh! and if you are so sensitive about intimate parts, turn on your mature filter sweetie.



On the same time pictures with lots of favourites, even of unknown artists, who spendt hours and hours and WOULD or SHOULD HAVE been featured on the frontpage, don't get the chance to get some exposure, because they submitted their piece into the right category.

- Well, if they have "lots of favourites" I don't think they are THAT unknown then.... just saying.



... The new frontpage system favours special categories (Photography>Interior/Exterior, Wallpaper>Photmanipulation, Digital Art>Vecor Art/Typography, Resources and Stock Images just to name a few of them), while more popular categories like Manga/Anime, Fanart, Digital Art>Paintings&Airbrushings and others are handicapped. So it is not rarely seen that a picture with 100 favs gets featured on the frontpage, while a picture out of the handicapped categories with, lets say, 500 favs remains unseen by the masses.

- Unseen by the masses?  With 500 favs? This is where I think this whole argument greatly contradicts itself. So basically you're saying that art that already receives hundreds of favs WITHOUT REACHING THE FRONTPAGE it's not receiving the attention it deserves, so that... isn't... fair?


Re-read and re-think that. You're saying that a deviation with a 500 favs should be on the frontpage, where it will obviously get even more attention. Yes, that sounds fair. If a deviation gets that amount of attention already by it's own, do you really think it needs to go to the front page?

I read a comment of someone saying something among the lines of "I was surprised that *insert extremely popular deviant here*'s latest deviation didn't reach the front page, that's not fair!" - once again; REALLY??!

First off: I don't know if you do, but I still see deviations from fairly known deviants, like loish, Hellobaby, GENZOMAN just to name a few, reaching the front page each time. The system still considers favs/views/comments to determine what is popular, so your precious popular deviants are not really affected by the new algorithm.  Secondly, and ooooonce again, why does a deviation that is already receiving a lot of attention need to be on the front page? It's like giving a DD to a deviation with 10,000 favs already. Sure it's not wrong actually, there are no rules against it but... what's the point?

- The rest of the description is more about personal opinion and experience, with phrases like "for me a lot of the magic DA used to have was lost with this new system..." .... to each their own. That's true for the person who wrote it, and I can't change that. It's not true for me.

I want to make clear I'm not saying starting a movement like these yellow deviations is wrong. It's certainly catching the attention of a lot of people, and I'm pretty sure the admins already saw them. Besides, they are by far a lot more useful  than just a whining comment of "I don't like this shit, take it away", it's stating an opinion and making a suggestion for improvement and I fully support that. I'm just adding my opinion on some of the points the text above touched. People talk about fairness but by the sound of this, it seems more like complaining that the art they used to see is not there anymore, but  I don't see how that have anything to do with fairness, but more with personal taste. Besides, I don't think that's completely true. I really, sincerely, honestly don't see that much of a difference with how it used to be then to how it is now. I still see the same kind of art mixed in the front page: nudes, fanart, ponies, art from popular artists, some art not of my taste, etc. and it has been like that for the past almost 7 years I've been here.

I agree that the system could be improved though, while it aims to be fairest as possible, it isn't there yet, but I believe is at least a step ahead from how it used to be, and as mentioned earlier, if the system is not entirely giving the results it should give is in part because of some people's fault, when they submit to these "obscured categories" trying to get to the front page and thus playing the "category game". There should be a better solution for this, but going back to the old system is definitely not one of them, because the old system is not fairer than the new one... unless our concepts of what is "fair" differ, which seems to be the case.

Add a Comment:
 
:iconmagr:
MAGR Featured By Owner Apr 21, 2012
I say, I wans't even aware about all this thing...
Reply
:iconphoenixleo:
phoenixleo Featured By Owner Apr 20, 2012
I will wait for exams to end before trying to say anything here :grump:
Reply
:icontouchedvenus:
TouchedVenus Featured By Owner Apr 19, 2012  Professional Digital Artist
AMEN! :heart:
Reply
:iconfaded2indie:
Faded2Indie Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012  Student Writer
The negativity of the comments on that blog were...well surprising to me. I guess some just don't handle change well when it won't be dramatically in their favor. We have so much talent here that gets swept under the rug so to speak. I'm honestly surprised when I run across one that is spectacular, and yet have maybe a handful of faves. and features can only do so much. If this new system will help work through the problem, I'm all for it. Besides, the ones you mentioned will get a ton of faves, regardless if they end up on the popular page or not. So what's it really hurting??

Well worded, dear. :heart:
Reply
:iconthesaltymonster:
TheSaltyMonster Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012
I wanted to say you did a great job with entertainment and wall of text. :clap:

And I agree :la:
Reply
:iconthiefoworld:
Thiefoworld Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012
yay
Reply
:iconginkgografix:
ginkgografix Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012
I don't really follow the drama (or much in general lately) but what is interesting is that most 'popular' people complain about that. Those that already have billions of watchers/favs etc. They complain that they don't get enough attention and that they worked so hard for it. It might be right, but i really wonder if they don't see those artists that just started or are unknown and worked hard as well, but never get a chance for more exposure.
Always feels like an egoistic thing, rather than they care for the fair exposure itself.

Other than that, i love this kind of journals from you. You always say things the way i would, if i would be better with words! :hug:
Reply
:iconthiefoworld:
Thiefoworld Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012
It's the gifs :B everything is better with gifs xD
Reply
:iconginkgografix:
ginkgografix Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012
:lol:
Reply
:iconpica-ae:
pica-ae Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012  Professional Interface Designer
I think the problem is the point of view :B

From a popular deviant's view, the new system may seem unfair, but to all others it is actually more fair now. The way it was before, was actually giving popular deviants an unfair advantage to the rest.

Most of the popular one's get all the fave purely thru watchers; if you have 5,000 watchers sure 500 faves in 24 hours really isn't that surprising. And they do not need the front page to reach that number at all!

The new system is for those with only 50 watchers to reach the dream-like 500 faves. Something usually only achievable via being featured as a DD.

Fair Exposure just ain't about popular deviants… it's made for talented, but unknown deviants to gain more exposure.
Reply
:iconfaded2indie:
Faded2Indie Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012  Student Writer
Thank you for clarifying that. I was still a bit confused on what the new system would actually do.
Reply
:iconpica-ae:
pica-ae Featured By Owner Apr 20, 2012  Professional Interface Designer
Well, I don't think I covered everything it does completely, but it is there to help deviants gain more exposure who deserve it, but just haven't been found by most people yet.
Of course, there is also the fact that this will apply to galleries as well.

Just saying "manga is popular, so its okay if there is more of it on the frontpage" is not a valid argument. It is why some people make suggestions to even block certain galleries from their frontpage, cos they don't care for that kind of deviation.

The questions is: do we want the galleries to be democratic or to we want them to show variety?

It is Art, I prefer variety :)
Reply
:iconfaded2indie:
Faded2Indie Featured By Owner Apr 20, 2012  Student Writer
Well put, and I agree.
Reply
:iconpica-ae:
pica-ae Featured By Owner Apr 22, 2012  Professional Interface Designer
:huggle:
Reply
:iconfaded2indie:
Faded2Indie Featured By Owner Apr 22, 2012  Student Writer
:hug:
Reply
:iconthiefoworld:
Thiefoworld Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012
And funny enough, I've seen that most of the so called popular deviants don't even care for these kind of things XD sure, there are some who do, but very often, those who dedicate to their art don't even bother if they reach the front page or not, most of the people complaining about the issue are the ones who think they now have even less opportunity to be featured there, when in fact is all the way around.
Reply
:iconpica-ae:
pica-ae Featured By Owner Apr 20, 2012  Professional Interface Designer
yeah, I think some of them are so busy that they don't even have time to check how popular they are. It really annoys me tho, that it's usually the "fans" who complain about their fave artist not getting enough exposure anymore.

And that is so true. They don't understand that it was actually done for them. :nod:
Reply
:iconelixia-dragmire:
Elixia-Dragmire Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012  Professional Digital Artist
... thank you. I always, sorta, ignore DARAMA but i saw this in small doses and yes they're argument in flawed.
Reply
:iconnegatic:
Negatic Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012  Professional
I would prefer a system where anyone can be featured on the front page - not having to see the same artworks over and over, done by people who have thousands of watchers and anything they upload ends up on the front.
Reply
:iconfionacreates:
FionaCreates Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012  Professional General Artist
In all honesty the only way to do a 'fair' front page would be for it to be monitored by a human being with reasoning skills, so they could go "oh look miscat, doesn't go on the front page" or "oh look nice underapreciated work, front page it" but to me that's the DD page ^^

Nothing controlled by a computer will be beyond exploitation for the people who want to exploit it. Even human reasoning is capable of being exploited.
Reply
:iconunexamined-life:
unexamined-life Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2012
The giffage just completes this journal. :B

Very well said. :nod:
Reply
:iconbanjelerp:
Banjelerp Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
:B I never pay attention to the "Popular" section of the front page anyway. Hell, I rarely visit it as it is. (I'm actually quite fed up with all the MLP fan art, it's just driving me bonkers, lately...) It's sad that so many people are so concerned with popularity. Sure, it's nice to get recognition, but making art shouldn't be about being popular, it should be about self-expression (in my humble opinion).

I find it hilarious that the person who wrote up the argument for this whole deal contradicted themselves so many times.

Overall, I tend to ignore this kind of stuff, because in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't affect me too much. :shrug:
Reply
:iconthiefoworld:
Thiefoworld Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012
I usually ignore it as well, in fact I was very tempted to scrap this journal, but then I thought, well why the hell not? :B I already wrote it anyway.
Reply
:iconbanjelerp:
Banjelerp Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Hey, someone's gotta say it, right? Why not you? XD
Reply
:iconkenshymidzu:
kenshymidzu Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Mira! un gif de supernatural *se va*
Reply
:iconmirz123:
Mirz123 Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2012
I commented on this way back when it first started. Many of my stamps used to make the front pages. Now, they rarely do. I don't get nearly as many faves because of it, but I don't complain. I submit to the right category. To me, the front page was/is a lovely bonus, not a right. Just like a DD. A very nice feature, but not the end-all.

My anger was not really at the system, but the people who purposely manipulate it. I think it's unfair that artists feel all proud and smug because they cheated the system.

I think it's a step in the right direction that the admins will punish such behavior. I feel that is the right course of action, not scrapping the system.
Reply
:iconthiefoworld:
Thiefoworld Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012
Yes I saw that, I also think is a good step :nod:
Reply
:iconlyricanna:
Lyricanna Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
My question, as it was in 2008 and and still is now, is if these popular people's art means THAT MUCH to them..why aren't they watching them? :B

Love your write up on this and I agree wholeheartedly =3
Reply
:iconalexandrasalas:
alexandrasalas Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2012  Professional Digital Artist
It's just like you said: The problem is mainly the people who noticed Fair Exposure recently and purposely miscat their stuff so they get on the Front Page, therefore exploiting the system.

There's an easy solution to the people complaining: use the search button or browse by category if you want to see art relevant to your interests, browse other people's favourites, check out art features in the journal portal! :D It'll give you less headaches, I believe. :B
Reply
:iconthiefoworld:
Thiefoworld Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012
Definitely! :nod:
Reply
:iconxadrea:
Xadrea Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2012  Professional Traditional Artist
I'm not sure if I understand the whole "front page" thing to begin with lol, it's like people who complain about not having DDs. Popularity seeking is getting a little out of hand lol
Reply
:iconthe-yuri-canon:
The-Yuri-Canon Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I don't even visit the front page. I keep an eye on the groups I follow. Bounce of things that others fav, browse collections and what have you. I don't let what is popular rule my interests. Just go to what I like.

Kat
Reply
:iconthiefoworld:
Thiefoworld Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012
:thumbsup:
Reply
:iconwreckling:
wreckling Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2012   Writer
"Unseen by the masses? With 500 favs? This is where I think this whole argument greatly contradicts itself. So basically you're saying that art that already receives hundreds of favs WITHOUT REACHING THE FRONTPAGE it's not receiving the attention it deserves, so that... isn't... fair? "

I want 500 favs on my work. I'm lucky if I break 20, sometimes. ;__;
Reply
:iconthiefoworld:
Thiefoworld Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012
:pat:
Reply
:iconwreckling:
wreckling Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012   Writer
:giggle:
Reply
:iconlyricanna:
Lyricanna Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Inorite? I'm lucky to break 15, even with all the fave bots!

:hug:
Reply
:iconwreckling:
wreckling Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2012   Writer
Go team XD :highfive: :hug:
Reply
:iconlyricanna:
Lyricanna Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
:winner:
Reply
:iconalexandrasalas:
alexandrasalas Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2012  Professional Digital Artist
Awww. :hug:
Reply
:iconwreckling:
wreckling Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2012   Writer
I wasn't being all that serious, but thanks. XD :giggle: :hug:
Reply
:iconalexandrasalas:
alexandrasalas Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2012  Professional Digital Artist
Still. XD :hug:

I guess comments and critiques would be more appreciated than favourites though. :giggle:
Reply
:iconwreckling:
wreckling Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2012   Writer
I do get a fair few comments, which is most of the reason I don't complain, really. I like comments more than anything, even if I tend to take forever to get back to them. :shifty:
Reply
:iconalexandrasalas:
alexandrasalas Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2012  Professional Digital Artist
:paranoid:
Reply
:iconmechangel2002:
mechangel2002 Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2012  Professional Traditional Artist
Your use of GIFS is epic :giggle:

I haven't visited the front page in over 5 years (man... I've been on here 9 years. I'm getting old). Its useless, I don't give a shit about what's on it, if I want to see something specific I just use the search bar. :shrug:

Now if only they'd bring in staff members who know what porn is :)
Reply
:iconneurotype:
neurotype Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
gif party :la:

I think the problem is it's exposing each category equally, even though some categories get a lot more submissions than another. It's kind of like the Senate, where North Dakota matters just as much as California with a millionth of the population.... The categories with a lot more submissions should have more thumbnails display (proportionally).
Reply
:iconfionacreates:
FionaCreates Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012  Professional General Artist
see I got the impression that the front page slots were proportionate to the size of the categories.

Like say there's the 24 slots, Manga and Anime get's 3 slots, Fanart gets 3 slots, but Customization Dolls gets 1 slot if they're lucky that day. (because there are far more than 24 categories on dA)
Reply
:iconneurotype:
neurotype Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
It seemed random to me, but that would make sense :o I have noticed that photography and digital art always have slots for sure.
Reply
:iconthiefoworld:
Thiefoworld Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012
Mmm I don't think that's exactly how it's working, at least not completely equally... but then again, as mentioned, I think only the developers know exactly how it works :shrug:
Reply
:iconneurotype:
neurotype Featured By Owner Apr 18, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Yeah :o I am speculating.
Reply
Add a Comment:
 
×

:iconthiefoworld: More from Thiefoworld


Featured in Collections

Journals News by pica-ae

Journal-Information by isacchi

Inspiring Journals by TheCreativeJenn


More from DeviantArt



Details

Submitted on
April 17, 2012
Link
Thumb

Stats

Views
5,878
Favourites
11 (who?)
Comments
76
×